Machine Gun Area Fire

Conflicts and wars from the end of the Second World War to the end of the 20th century.
UshCha
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Re: Machine Gun Area Fire

Post by UshCha » Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:18 pm

10MM IS THE ULTIMATE SCALE as it allows you to get SFMG's on table and still see them (just) ;-). It was interesting about the alternate positions for the guns and the change in rate of fire of the section to cover one weapon moving. Also the bit about not being more than 500 yds from the ammo vehicle/dump was a very interesting issue. In the absence of better data we allow an infantry squad to carry enough ammo to allow a GPMG to fire in the SFMG role. However in doing so they are not able to shoot or fight as they are severely encumbered, what are your thoughts?

Seret
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Re: Machine Gun Area Fire

Post by Seret » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:16 pm

UshCha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:18 pm
In the absence of better data we allow an infantry squad to carry enough ammo to allow a GPMG to fire in the SFMG role. However in doing so they are not able to shoot or fight as they are severely encumbered, what are your thoughts?
Do you mean using one of the squads from an infantry company to support the SFMG boys by humping ammo for them? Operating an SFMG is something only specialist troops with their own equipment and training will do.

I think any time you detail troops for a special task that should be the only thing they're doing. It's not like ammo porters would have anything to shoot at anyway. They'll be beyond effective small arms range and usually behind terrain.

granty101
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Re: Machine Gun Area Fire

Post by granty101 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:19 pm

Rumblestrip wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:08 am
Seret wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:16 am
I think one of the big takeaways...
I like a big takeaway :)

Andrew
I'm having one for my tea tonight as I can't be ar*ed to cook :D

Grant
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dadlamassu
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Re: Machine Gun Area Fire

Post by dadlamassu » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:06 pm

UshCha wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:18 pm
In the absence of better data we allow an infantry squad to carry enough ammo to allow a GPMG to fire in the SFMG role. However in doing so they are not able to shoot or fight as they are severely encumbered, what are your thoughts?
It is very unlikely that an infantry section would be detached to be ammo porters for an MMG section. The MMG platoons have their own vehicles and support/admin in their parent company and battalion to do this. Checking the revelevant staff tables, TO&E and ORBAT will reveal the data you require.

In any case a soldier carrying a couple of boxes of belt ammunition can fight and shoot simply by dropping the boxes. Two boxes (one in each hand) is the most likely way to carry belted ammo though the amount carried is not likely to last long.
Alan
[url]http://www.morvalearth.co.uk/[/url]

UshCha
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Re: Machine Gun Area Fire

Post by UshCha » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:24 am

My aim was that in some cases units carry GPMG's with the option of a Tripod. To use the tripod and fre as a GPMG needs large amounts of ammo, In some circumstances the infantry could be detailed to carry this to a dump point, but would be sufficently encoumbered they could not fight. As has been said this may not be a big issue as you would want the GPMG beyond 400 yds to the enemy (out of typical rifle range).

Seret
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Re: Machine Gun Area Fire

Post by Seret » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:42 am

UshCha wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:24 am
My aim was that in some cases units carry GPMG's with the option of a Tripod.
True, some armies have GPMG + tripod but don't really train their guys to operate them as SFMGs. In those cases I wouldn't really allow them to do any of the fancy stuff proper SFMG units would be doing. If they're not trained for it or have the indirect fire sights for their guns then they should be limited to direct fire only.

dadlamassu
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Re: Machine Gun Area Fire

Post by dadlamassu » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:13 pm

Depends, as Seret, says on level of training. I would expect your GPMGs in the light role to be used out to about 600m and the crew may be able to to use the tripod to engage in direct fire only with ranges of 400m - about 1,500m possible with the tripod. With specialist training, special sights and a lot of ammo the SF trained crews can reach out to 2,000m or more. That is why they are grouped in specialist platoons or companies. The battalion echelons hold the first line ammunition supply and if anyone has to cart spare ammo about for the MGs it is their job.

For indirect fire specialist training is needed and would be beyond the usual infantry soldier's training.

As far as wargames rules are concerned I'd suggest that the GPMG SF in all types of fire except direct fire is the province of a trained crew. Ammunition resupply for the GPMG SF comes via the battalion echelon (or equivalent) or it may be prepositioned in the same way that mortar and artillery ammunition for bombardments. If you are using the indirect fire mode for your guns then the restrictions your rules place on moving medium mortars should also apply to your GPMG SF as they are both part of the battalion indirect fire support.
Alan
[url]http://www.morvalearth.co.uk/[/url]

UshCha
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Re: Machine Gun Area Fire

Post by UshCha » Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:03 am

So I have been testing out what I think is a good compromise solution for our rules. Not perfect but gets most of what I wanted with almost no new rules.

The rules already had a provision for fixed line machine guns fireing un-observed fire over pre-surveyed lines. This alloweds such fire out to 600m. The chance of an individual element being shot is less but with 3 or more elements in the line then it is the optimum solution. This is inline with current systems (M240 for example). Having reviewd the training videos on MG fire it is clear one of the Gunners tasks is to optimise the line of fire to hit the most number of troops in the narrow 150m long cone. So what to do? Well the current solution is over severe in theory, but we allow the same effect as fixed line to be performed on any line of fire from the Gun out to 600m for the length of the shot that is visible. Now in most cases it is very inlikely that the enemy will obligeingly line up in daylight for imprompture fire over all 600m, particularly as players have a better view of the battlefield than there real life counterparts. Hence the beaten zone will be almost self restricting to more credible lengths. Also in the video it is clear that for short periods the normal rate of fire can be increased to higher rates for short periods. Hence hitting over 600m may be possible if the situation requires it.

So far I have not come out with enough(any) data to provde a credible solution to area fire beyond 600m.

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