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#1 28-Nov-2016 11:19:14

Gary
Brigadier
From: Costa Almeria, Spain
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 849

MoD plans MBT cuts...

According to press reports the Challenger II fleet will be cut by a third and one armoured regt will be re-equipped with the new Ajax AFV with its 40mm cannon......this will leave Britain behind Serbia and Switzerland in the MBT stakes but it does finally put the British Army within reach for 1/1 scale on the tabletop.


"The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes"

"Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."

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#2 28-Nov-2016 11:24:22

bannockburn bhoy
Lieutenant General
From: Glasgow
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 1,999

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Aye Gary but they will still expect our forces  to go as always , and they will , bstrd politicians ,there should be one day a year where politicians are open season.

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#3 28-Nov-2016 12:48:55

GregP
Lieutenant Colonel
Registered: 15-Dec-2014
Posts: 558

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

I attended two days of industry briefings with the MOD last month, there should have been an announcement to mind the gap between fantasy and reality, two things were very clear, the MOD is unbelievably stretched and unbelievably hard up. The replacement of MBT's with Ajax just feels like the 1930's all over again!

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#4 28-Nov-2016 13:30:28

Russell Phillips
root
From: Stoke on Trent, UK
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 788
Website

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

People started predicting the death of the MBT back in the 1960s, saying that the ATGM had made it obsolete. It never occurred to me that it would be bureaucrats that killed MBTs, rather than some technological invention.


Russell Phillips

Shilka Publishing
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#5 28-Nov-2016 14:09:02

Gary
Brigadier
From: Costa Almeria, Spain
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 849

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Its amazing that the IDF ( of similar size to the UKLF) manages with 5 generals, how many of staff\flag rank in the British forces........all jobs for the boys and bureaucrats in Whitehall......that's where a big chunk of the budget goes,that and thinktank\ committees etc......

It does all appear to be circling around again.......cheap light armour - effectiveness less important than cost effectiveness.........

Sorry chaps, getting off of my orange crate now........


"The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes"

"Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."

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#6 28-Nov-2016 15:01:51

granty101
Lieutenant General
From: Durham
Registered: 26-Mar-2015
Posts: 1,557

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Gary wrote:

Sorry chaps, getting off of my orange crate now

Gary, I think a lot of people might want to borrow your orange crate as all the soap boxes seem to be getting used!!!

But seriously, politicians seem to be the only people that don't realise we, (the UK Armed forces), can no longer afford, or be expected, to send troops and tanks to places like Afghanistan or Iraq.

Grant


Vot is your Name? Don't tell him Pike!!!

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#7 28-Nov-2016 15:28:23

Seret
Lieutenant
Registered: 15-Feb-2016
Posts: 244
Website

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Ajax isn't a replacement for the MBTs in any way, shape or form. It's also not a cost-saving measure, buying Ajax costs a lot more than retaining some Challengers would. There's a cost saving in cutting Challengers, but not one in replacing Challengers with Ajaxes.

We need Ajax to replace the CVR(T)s, which are getting a bit long in the tooth. Let's not get the recce mission and the MBT one confused here, they're completely different things.

For a lot of the things the Army gets asked to do these days a lighter, more modern vehicle would be more deployable and more useful in-theatre anyway. Although of course that does fall into the old trap of preparing the fight the last war.

Last edited by Seret (28-Nov-2016 15:30:18)

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#8 28-Nov-2016 16:05:15

SOTCW799
Staff Sergeant
Registered: 18-Mar-2012
Posts: 66

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

The problem for years has been that politicians have been cutting income tax for years to get votes, and the first place that has to make cuts is the MoD. A friend was working in the MoD from when he left school in 1974, he took early retirement five years ago as he said he felt that the MoD was slowly being privatised and was no longer a Civil Service.
All three services have been cut to the bone, fewer ships, aircraft, tanks and personnel. Looks like we may be getting the Boxer (German/Dutch eight wheeled personnel carrier) to be Brigaded with the Ajax, we could have had this years ago we were involved in the original design, but pulled out.

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#9 28-Nov-2016 16:22:42

granty101
Lieutenant General
From: Durham
Registered: 26-Mar-2015
Posts: 1,557

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Seret wrote:

For a lot of the things the Army gets asked to do these days a lighter, more modern vehicle would be more deployable

I read somewhere that the Ajax is too wide to be air portable by the current fleet of transport aircraft. This is due to the bolt on/add on side armour making it to wide to fit into the aircraft cargo hold.

Has anyone else heard/read about this??

Grant


Vot is your Name? Don't tell him Pike!!!

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#10 28-Nov-2016 16:27:26

SOTCW799
Staff Sergeant
Registered: 18-Mar-2012
Posts: 66

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Sounds a bit like the Boxer, it takes 5 A400 Atlas aircraft to transport 4 Boxers, the fifth aircraft is for all the add on armour.

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#11 28-Nov-2016 16:33:21

Richard B.
Moderator
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 2,391

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

I read elsewhere that the navy were loosing their anti-ship missiles too (due to age and cost of replacements) and all combat was to be via guns...............

Some (more naval knowledgeable than i) pointed out that modern naval warfare is "over the horizon" and guns can`t fire that far...............


"“Sir with the compliments of my officer, your shooting was excellent – you killed four of our men”!
Un-named Traillieur to an artillery officer at R`Fakah, Morocco, Feb. 29th, 1908

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#12 28-Nov-2016 16:39:09

Richard B.
Moderator
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 2,391

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

SOTCW799 wrote:

The problem for years has been that politicians have been cutting income tax for years to get votes
.

I have repeatedly screamed about this, taxes should be maintained even in good times to improve public services and pay for improvements - make me so f*****g angry when politicians (of any colour and party) talk about tax cuts - what the f**k are you running the country with peanuts!!!!!

I have on more than one occasion offered to pay more when asked by pollsters, I understand the lower paid being helped - that`s fine, but the rest of us (and don`t get me started on the super rich and corporations) should pay a fair amount into the countries coffers to pay for what our country needs.


"“Sir with the compliments of my officer, your shooting was excellent – you killed four of our men”!
Un-named Traillieur to an artillery officer at R`Fakah, Morocco, Feb. 29th, 1908

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#13 28-Nov-2016 16:40:58

Richard B.
Moderator
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 2,391

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

SOTCW799 wrote:

Sounds a bit like the Boxer, it takes 5 A400 Atlas aircraft to transport 4 Boxers, the fifth aircraft is for all the add on armour.

Oh for gods sake................. sad


"“Sir with the compliments of my officer, your shooting was excellent – you killed four of our men”!
Un-named Traillieur to an artillery officer at R`Fakah, Morocco, Feb. 29th, 1908

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#14 28-Nov-2016 16:44:49

granty101
Lieutenant General
From: Durham
Registered: 26-Mar-2015
Posts: 1,557

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Richard, are you sharing Gary's orange box over there in Spain?? lol

Grant

P.S. I totally agree with everything you said


Vot is your Name? Don't tell him Pike!!!

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#15 28-Nov-2016 16:57:09

hammurabi70
Captain
Registered: 01-Aug-2014
Posts: 276

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Gary wrote:

According to press reports the Challenger II fleet will be cut by a third and one armoured regt will be re-equipped with the new Ajax AFV with its 40mm cannon......this will leave Britain behind Serbia and Switzerland in the MBT stakes but it does finally put the British Army within reach for 1/1 scale on the tabletop.

I suppose we should be thankful that unlike the Dutch we will still be keeping some.

granty101 wrote:

Gary, I think a lot of people might want to borrow your orange crate as all the soap boxes seem to be getting used!!!

But seriously, politicians seem to be the only people that don't realise we, (the UK Armed forces), can no longer afford, or be expected, to send troops and tanks to places like Afghanistan or Iraq.

Grant

I can see WWIII erupting over access to that ORANGE BOX.  I get fed-up with 'liberal anti-colonial / champagne socialists' who insist the world should do what they think as if we still ran the empire but are unwilling to fund even modest armed services to provide some international capacity for the UK.  I doubt we could raise enough to replicate Gulf War II now.  I can see a lot of ranting from everyone so i'll stop now ... .


If you are such a great writer make me want to logon and respond! [Adapted]

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#16 28-Nov-2016 17:25:46

dadlamassu
Brigadier
From: Bonnie Scotland
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 957
Website

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Please remember that the politicians are only in power because people elected them.  So everything is the electorate's fault.  wink

The Ajax series is set to replace, as has already been said, the CVR(T) series variants - recce, FOO, Surveillance, APC, Command, Engineer recce, recovery, repair etc.  There never has been any intention to use them as MBT replacements as far as I know.  There might even be ambulances and others too.  I also think a variant with a 120mm(?) fire support gun was planned. 

The reduction in Challengers is not news, it started about the time of the coalition government of 2010.

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#17 28-Nov-2016 17:36:58

dadlamassu
Brigadier
From: Bonnie Scotland
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 957
Website

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

SOTCW799 wrote:

Sounds a bit like the Boxer, it takes 5 A400 Atlas aircraft to transport 4 Boxers, the fifth aircraft is for all the add on armour.

Thank goodness we don't have any Boxer AFVs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(ar … g_vehicle)
1024px-Boxer_Land_400.jpg

Not sure what you are implying.  The add on armour is exactly that.  It is added to the basic vehicle to make a standard vehicle combat effective in a variety of situations so different add on kits can be fitted for different operational areas and situations.  It is a bit like having a multi-role aircraft which can be configured for air superiority or ground attack, strike, buddy refueller, recce depending on which kit is fitted.

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#18 28-Nov-2016 18:44:03

SOTCW799
Staff Sergeant
Registered: 18-Mar-2012
Posts: 66

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

British Army — In October 2016, it was reported that the British Ministry of Defence took its first formal step, a preliminary market engagement, for government-to-government acquisition of up to 900 Boxer vehicles.[33]

There was also this;
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/box … equirement

Last edited by SOTCW799 (28-Nov-2016 18:52:00)

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#19 28-Nov-2016 19:29:12

Gary
Brigadier
From: Costa Almeria, Spain
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 849

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Just cast your eye over the Boxer and Patria amv wiki pages ...........an off the shelf deal could be made........maybe as a sweetener to Frau Merkel over Brexit negotiations .....each vehicle runs at about £4.5 million ...UK govt is angling for some production in the UK too.

Interesting that the Patria has been adopted by SANDF as a replacement for the aging Ratel family. Sweden and quite a few others have bought them too.


"The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes"

"Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."

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#20 28-Nov-2016 20:18:22

Seret
Lieutenant
Registered: 15-Feb-2016
Posts: 244
Website

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Richard B. wrote:
SOTCW799 wrote:

Sounds a bit like the Boxer, it takes 5 A400 Atlas aircraft to transport 4 Boxers, the fifth aircraft is for all the add on armour.

Oh for gods sake................. sad

What's the problem? Sounds like a sensible way of making a vehicle that might otherwise be too big and heavy into an air portable load.

Deploy them in the lightest configuration, if the threat level warrants it also fly out the kits and fit them.

The Challenger fleet is going to be available for a good while yet. The government has already signed up for a SLEP that should give them another 20 years.

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#21 07-Mar-2017 13:16:21

uglyfatbloke
Staff Sergeant
Registered: 19-Feb-2016
Posts: 88

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Can't afford a tank or decent pay ..... but we can afford more admirals that we have ships, we can afford 2 white elephant carriers, we can afford pointless frigates to ensure that prospective admirals get the requisite amount of time I/C a surface warship, we can afford Trident though it has no utility, we can afford a separate air force which essentially plans and fights it's own wars with a loose connection to the rest of the effort, we can afford a parachute regiment, we can afford scarlet jacket units for fancy parades (at which, admittedly, we are very much better than anyone else)....but we can't afford decent accommodation.  GGRRRRRRRRRHHHHH!!!!!

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#22 07-Mar-2017 13:57:59

ianrs54
Colonel
From: Birkenhead
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 744
Website

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

Bit too political Me thinks....

IanS


Any thing bigger than 6 is TOO BIG

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#23 07-Mar-2017 19:38:17

Gary
Brigadier
From: Costa Almeria, Spain
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 849

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

The ratio of high ranking officers, admirals and generals, to ships  and tanks is disproportionately high .......the IDF (of comparable size) has 2 or 3 in total. The supernumeraries in the UK absorb lots of wages/bonuses and facilities........budget cuts and adjustments?


"The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes"

"Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."

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#24 07-Mar-2017 22:37:54

dadlamassu
Brigadier
From: Bonnie Scotland
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 957
Website

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

ianrs54 wrote:

Bit too political Me thinks....

IanS

Methinks likewise.

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#25 08-Mar-2017 00:14:21

bannockburn bhoy
Lieutenant General
From: Glasgow
Registered: 16-Mar-2012
Posts: 1,999

Re: MoD plans MBT cuts...

I worked for the MOD for a few years ,and I can tell you some of the housing for services personnel is truly appalling.

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