A difficult Question - Hedges

Conflicts and wars from the end of the Second World War to the end of the 20th century.
UshCha
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 12:41 pm

A difficult Question - Hedges

Post by UshCha » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:18 am

Our current "game" at 1/144 is upto bound 70. Its been a long (but facinating slog) time, every platoon position taken has beed hard and costly as the tearin is close and the emeny "hugs me close" to hinder the prepondrerance of my artillery. However the real killer are the hedges and ditches. We have assumed that all hedges have ditches and that there is about 15% chance of a tracked vehicle getting temporarilly stuck crossing a hedge/ditch . How sensible is this compared to the real world Europe.

Adler Leon
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Re: A difficult Question - Hedges

Post by Adler Leon » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:04 pm

My 'feeling' is thats its too low a chance. A lot of thought and effort went into designing kit and tactics to sort the hedge problem so I assume it must have been a major headache to justify that. No evidence to justify any of the above!
L

bannockburn bhoy
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Re: A difficult Question - Hedges

Post by bannockburn bhoy » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:18 pm

If your talking the Bocage post Normandy landings then really unrealistic.
One of the main problems facing allied troops encountering the Bocage for the first time was the complete unpreparedness and underestimation of the barrier the Bocage presented .
This is reflected quite often in wargaming terms by the size of the Bocage being represented much smaller than it actually was.
The allied failings included the leadership not knowing how to tackle the obstacle and in turn suffering disproportionate losses ,particularly in officers and NCO,s. There was no combined arms methodology initially and both infantry and armour suffered accordingly.
The terrain could not have suited the defender more ,particularly as the German defenders knew how to take full use of it..Interlocking fields of MG fire ,AT guns positioned in sunken lanes ,infantry dug into the banks of the base of the hedges ,together with supporting sniper fire from higher up atop the hedges, mortars mines etc.
The Germans had their tactics spot on.
By trial and error ,the allied tactics evolved ,efforts were made to use explosives to blast their way through the hedges ,but it was to time consuming and took far to much explosive to be effective.
Eventually a Sgt Cullin came up with the idea of fitting "saws" to the front of the tanks. German obstacles from the beaches were bastardised to outfit Sherman M4,s with this new attachment.
This together with the two arms combining started to gain some momentum in breaking through the defences.
For gaming purposes pre Cullin device I would seriously up that 15% chance , with the Cullin device etc 3 out of every 5 attempts were successful , where unsuccessful they would change position. cheers John

UshCha
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Re: A difficult Question - Hedges

Post by UshCha » Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:30 pm

I was not considering Bocarge or similar I agree that is an engineering task to clear through them. Apparently the A
mericans used a number of methods to get through them even at the end but the Culin device seems to be the most well known but not all units adopted it. I was thinking more allong more "typical" hedge and ditch combinations that are not untypical of parts of the UK. In wales thre are some hedges that are not wildly diffrent to bocarge which is more of an earth berm with trees growing in it, but again not what I was aiming at.

HGow about this as the sort of thing I was considering.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... =0&eim=1,6

Gary
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Location: Costa Almeria, Spain

Re: A difficult Question - Hedges

Post by Gary » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:11 am

Tracked vehicles would cross the hedge/ditch in the photo with relative ease, the important questions would be the angle of approach and the state of the ground- dry or waterlogged for traction. The example could be made practicable for 4WD vehicles in minutes with some digging out and ramping.......the hedge on its own would be no obstacle other than to slow a wheeled vehicle.
"The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes"

"Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."

UshCha
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Re: A difficult Question - Hedges

Post by UshCha » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:40 am

Our assumption is that all would need to gross at 90 degrees to the hedge and going slowly, the chance of getting temporarily stuck woul be 15%. Is that relativly easily?

bannockburn bhoy
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Location: Glasgow

Re: A difficult Question - Hedges

Post by bannockburn bhoy » Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:13 am

The photo would have been more useful in the first instance. It would have saved me prattling on about the Bocage which I don't think was an unreasonable assumption. :roll: :oops: :roll:

Gary
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Location: Costa Almeria, Spain

Re: A difficult Question - Hedges

Post by Gary » Wed Apr 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Prattle away!!😄

Personally I would rate the chance of bogging according to the season, summer 5%, spring/autumn 10% and winter 15%, perhaps a variable +5/10% for rain?
"The man who has no sense of history, is like a man who has no ears or eyes"

"Good health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die."

CarlL
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Re: A difficult Question - Hedges

Post by CarlL » Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:19 pm

UshCha,
Perhaps I should join Bannockburn Bhoy, on (chastising you on ?) the usefulness of your photos (what a collection og hedges and ditches!) before I put paint to paper recently (just joking) as I did something collecting aerial hedge photos to see what look and colour you saw from a height!
CarlL

Seret
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Re: A difficult Question - Hedges

Post by Seret » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:46 am

15% seems rather high. That would mean you'd expect a company of tanks to be combat ineffective after crossing half a dozen hedges. Tanks are designed specifically to eat hedges and ditches for breakfast. I think they should reduce the rate of movement and allow a defender an opportunistic shot at them as they cross, but actual losses from crossing them should be rare except for the very worst obstacles.

You said you're assuming a ditch with every hedge, that might well be the case in some areas but I don't think it should be your default assumption. Ditches are only dug where they're needed. A hedge between two fields won't usually include a ditch for example.

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