Wargamers and Tactics/strategy.

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UshCha
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Re: Wargamers and Tactics/strategy.

Post by UshCha » 01 Jun 2019, 12:41

dadlamassu,
It gets even more interesting as the manuals to some extent don't agree. TMP gus provided the link below. I whish I had asked about this 10 years ago!

https://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publ ... 094831-553

Page 6-13 has a slightly diffrent interpretation on dead space.

With the above source it puts the width as about 1m at 600m (2 mils). This at our groundscale is about 1mm so not an issue for us and the impact on the statistical analysis will be small. Fixed line fire impractical at beyond 600m as the deadspece is now to biig and it becomes more plungeing fire.
Our ex platoon commnade said that plunging fire had another advantage. Close in a bollet is supersonic so you hear the bang of the gun then the crack as it passes as the bullet is supersonic. With plunging fire its often at ranges where the bullet is not supersonic so ther is no warning of a near miss. Must admit that is way to complex fror direct implimantation in our rules, but its very interesting. To me this is what wargaming is about, understanding the real world and implimenting the bare minimum to make command decisions credible and the underlying reasons for same.

dadlamassu
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Re: Wargamers and Tactics/strategy.

Post by dadlamassu » 01 Jun 2019, 13:25

UshCha wrote:
01 Jun 2019, 12:41
It gets even more interesting as the manuals to some extent don't agree
No surprise at all. Different editions of the same manual may also be different. And when actually used on the battlefield any resemblance to manual is likely to be coincidental.

the most common reason for bullets arriving without being heard is simply that a battlefield is not a quiet place it is filled with noise, smoke, fear and bullets.

UshCha
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Re: Wargamers and Tactics/strategy.

Post by UshCha » 01 Jun 2019, 14:19

Dadlammasu,
I was given this link from a guy on TMP on a similar thread.

https://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publ ... 094831-553

The deadspace interpretation is diffrent see page 6-13.
width of the beaten zone given as 2 mills which at 600m is about 1m and about 2m at 1500m

Now at our ground scale 1mm =1m so assuming a line and ignoreing the width makes sence. Interestingly it also makes athe assumption of safe cleranfe to enemy of 3 deg. about 3m at 600m. Given the bases are oversize just assuming the line misses the base seems not that daft and saves lots of rules. Wich is we e were before this latest set of data. There is still the level of lethality in the real world. Currently shooting at a point target is best if there is onkly one element that can be shot. If there are more than 3 in a line then a line fire is best. Should we actually change it to two or more targes to be better to shoot a line?

For ammunition for a Tripod machine gun the ammo has to be dumped before the game or you need a squad to haul the ammo in a non-combat mode to a suitable point OR have a Big crew of at least half a dosen and then still have ammo within 500m of the gun.

PS nobody spotted my deliberate mistake. I used bullets per second not seconds per bullet so for the fixed line 100RPM gives 33% chance of a hit vs 13% in the original incorrect calculatioin. That shows the "spray and pray" approach belov3ed of hollywood is even worse considering ammo use. PS this set of calcs is correct for the assumed rate of fire.

bannockburn bhoy
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Re: Wargamers and Tactics/strategy.

Post by bannockburn bhoy » 01 Jun 2019, 14:51

did someone mention ammo use ;)

UshCha
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Re: Wargamers and Tactics/strategy.

Post by UshCha » 01 Jun 2019, 15:37

Test the last two attemps seem to have failed.

UshCha
Posts: 164
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Re: Wargamers and Tactics/strategy.

Post by UshCha » 01 Jun 2019, 15:42

OK so I was given this link on TMP very excellent and covers what I had gleend but this has much more.

https://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publ ... 094831-553

Chaper 6 page 6-13 covers Graving fire and the width is coberd elseweher in the chapter as 2 mills so about 1m at 600m so not worth modelling at our scale of 1mm=1m.

Beyond 600m it becomes by default sort of plunging fire, so other crireria would apply.

Interesting that lots of fact have come out but little discussion on how its implemented in your favorite game being as its so key use of the weapon.

Seret
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Re: Wargamers and Tactics/strategy.

Post by Seret » 05 Jun 2019, 14:13

UshCha wrote:
01 Jun 2019, 14:19
width of the beaten zone given as 2 mills which at 600m is about 1m and about 2m at 1500m
2 mils would be 3m at 1500m.

Bear in mind that unless you're talking a single gun firing a fixed line your beaten zone will be substantially bigger. A pair of guns traversing back and forth can suppress an area several dozen metres wide and quite deep.

UshCha
Posts: 164
Joined: 21 Sep 2016, 12:41

Re: Wargamers and Tactics/strategy.

Post by UshCha » 06 Jun 2019, 11:39

Serret,
Area fire is yet a whole new world. This bit was aimed at just ine effect the Fixed Final defensive line.

However any info on area fire would be of interest. I think its in the Maribne link i supplied that area fire is limited practicaly to 100 mils per gun as the latteral ajusting screw is about that range of angle on an M240.

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