Does Paintaing have nothing to do with Wargameing?

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UshCha
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Re: Does Paintaing have nothing to do with Wargameing?

Post by UshCha » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:29 pm

OK I believe in telling folk to put their money where their mouth is so I can do no less. Today I needed to be at instant readyness to fetch and carry for elderly mother in law, so what better time than to try out for real in sensible quantities my minimalist painting. 30 figures sprayed black painted green missing the rifles and boots ect if possible but no correcting for errors. Dry brush light brown and basetext the figures on 1 and 2 pence coins. En mass they look fine, to be honest even better than I expected, so this will be my standard from now on.

For me being relieved from the tyrany of painting is a great relief, today I feel good!

Richard we an interesting debate last night , one of the reasons we wrote our rules was to KEEP IT SIMPLE. Turning turrets gets rid of lots of rules. Having things like the movement markers saves remebering stuff and makes the overall game much faster. Typically if we do pinch a scenario form another game system with a time limit we halve the number of bounds. I hate those rules with in some cases have half a page of IF THEN for morale and pinning. We do it all by other parts of the rules like shooting which inclueds a pinning effect in the same roll again really fast.

Now only 2 things take time moving toys and thinking where to move the toys the rules being Very Simple. Most folk can get their head round slow, fast Halt and Reverse and occationaly "Ludicrous Speed". Permitted Weight of bridges is not a complication itsjust common sence you see every day or at least I do!

bannockburn bhoy
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Re: Does Paintaing have nothing to do with Wargameing?

Post by bannockburn bhoy » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:50 pm

Why bother with figures at all ,why not use counters or self finished game pieces or tiddlywinks!

Seret
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Re: Does Paintaing have nothing to do with Wargameing?

Post by Seret » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:28 pm

UshCha wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:13 am
Basically painting a model for actual play is POINTLESS.
Bit of a sweeping statement there. I think there are a number of factors that determine how much detail you'll be able to perceive: scale, colours, lighting, eyesight, etc. Particularly in these winter months we're playing our games when it's dark outside, and the halls most clubs meet in have pretty poor lighting. That will make a huge difference to how much detail you can see. I know it buggers with photos that I try and take of games.

Personally I think sitting down to a game with good-looking terrain and nicely painted models is one of the great joys of the hobby. I love looking at the table mid-game and just thinking "wow!". My club tends to uphold pretty good standards of presentation, there's a bit of an unwritten rule about unpainted models, and those that do paint their own stuff tend to put in a good effort.

Also, there are styles of painting that maximise the impact at the kind of distances you actually look at your miniatures. Especially in periods like black powder it's very effective to adopt a more impressionistic style that looks incredible from across a table. On top of that there's the old maxim of "bases and banners" being more important than the figures. Granted, 20th century does suffer a bit there: drab colours, no banners and often no bases either! But there are plenty of folks painting even in 6mm and using lots of contrast to make stuff that looks good at more than squinting distance.

Besides, who cares if your stuff only looks good at squinting distance? I love getting down and having a good squint mid-game.
UshCha wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:56 am
you can't play well and chat.
Oh, come on. You're just being silly now. I've played a few wargames in my time, I've never met anyone who didn't engage in a bit of banter over the table.

Kalinovsky
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Re: Does Paintaing have nothing to do with Wargameing?

Post by Kalinovsky » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:28 pm

Russell Phillips wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 4:09 pm
To my mind, that comes under the general heading of "don't be an arsehole".
I suspect you’re setting the bar a bit too high for Brian

Richard B.
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Re: Does Paintaing have nothing to do with Wargameing?

Post by Richard B. » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:54 pm

UshCha wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:29 pm
Richard we an interesting debate last night , one of the reasons we wrote our rules was to KEEP IT SIMPLE. Turning turrets gets rid of lots of rules. Having things like the movement markers saves remebering stuff and makes the overall game much faster. Typically if we do pinch a scenario form another game system with a time limit we halve the number of bounds. I hate those rules with in some cases have half a page of IF THEN for morale and pinning. We do it all by other parts of the rules like shooting which inclueds a pinning effect in the same roll again really fast.

Now only 2 things take time moving toys and thinking where to move the toys the rules being Very Simple. Most folk can get their head round slow, fast Halt and Reverse and occationaly "Ludicrous Speed". Permitted Weight of bridges is not a complication itsjust common sence you see every day or at least I do!
But that is NOT what comes over with the questions you ask, it would appear you want to know the number of hairs on a furry rats behind to include them in your rules for such an such occasion :D
"“Sir with the compliments of my officer, your shooting was excellent – you killed four of our men”!
Un-named Traillieur to an artillery officer at R`Fakah, Morocco, Feb. 29th, 1908

CarlL
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Re: Does Paintaing have nothing to do with Wargameing?

Post by CarlL » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:15 pm

NOW WHERE ARE the Thought Police when you need them to calm a debate before it boils over........

CarlL who thought it was only me who needed to take meds to be "in touch" with reality....... (doesn't matter which reality, Grant, before you ask..

eg The counter mao game reality...

The 2mm cant you see his AK47 reality...

The "pretty" painted 5mm / 10mm/ 12mm / 15mm / 20mm / 25mm / 28mm / gringo size mm reality

Now back to my book, Zen and the Art of Thought Policing.....

granty101
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Re: Does Paintaing have nothing to do with Wargameing?

Post by granty101 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:54 am

CarlL wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:15 pm
NOW WHERE ARE the Thought Police when you need them to calm a debate before it boils over........
Hubble bubble toil and trouble...let the cauldron boil over I say!! ;)

Grant
Vot is your Name? Don't tell him Pike!!!

UshCha
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Re: Does Paintaing have nothing to do with Wargameing?

Post by UshCha » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:31 am

Perhaps we need to medidtate deeply on the definiotion of complicated. To me the long "chants" in morale rules is complicated.

Simple real world issues like turning a turet, like the real world is not complicated.
Having a river that behaves like a river is not hard to grasp so its not complicated.
Having houses close together so they block lots of lines of sight I would say is not complicated it to me is obvious.

Now oversimplified terrain will give a very inaccurate reproduction. Excessive random factors mitigate any need for planning and any sort of thought, basicaly its Snakes and Ladders with expensive pieces.

Sensible terrain and simple rules can offer up interesting challenges on how to deploy in time and space , what fighting a battle is really about. But that is just what its about, that to me is not complicated its just the way the world is.

So fundametally is it a simple simulation or Snakes and Ladders. i''m assuming Snakes and Laddera is a universal kid game so need for a description.

Richard B.
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Re: Does Paintaing have nothing to do with Wargameing?

Post by Richard B. » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:01 am

UshCha wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:31 am
Perhaps we need to medidtate deeply on the definiotion of complicated. To me the long "chants" in morale rules is complicated.

Simple real world issues like turning a turet, like the real world is not complicated.
Having a river that behaves like a river is not hard to grasp so its not complicated.
Having houses close together so they block lots of lines of sight I would say is not complicated it to me is obvious.

Now oversimplified terrain will give a very inaccurate reproduction. Excessive random factors mitigate any need for planning and any sort of thought, basicaly its Snakes and Ladders with expensive pieces.

Sensible terrain and simple rules can offer up interesting challenges on how to deploy in time and space , what fighting a battle is really about. But that is just what its about, that to me is not complicated its just the way the world is.

So fundametally is it a simple simulation or Snakes and Ladders. i''m assuming Snakes and Laddera is a universal kid game so need for a description.
Totally agree, about how things work (how guns fire, how tanks move), line of sight (you can`t possibly know that from where you are), linear obstacles (it take "X" time to cross that stream, climb that hill, etc). All you need is a simple understanding of what can and cannot be done in the real world.

Morale - again simpler than often portrayed on tabletop - I ask the guys the question - "you`ve just seen your mates chopped by that machine gun - would you follow them"? the answer is of course - NO, so the follow-up troops take cover and call for support......

As for oversimplified terrain giving inaccurate reproduction, well that depends on the scenario and how it was written and how your game plays. Take a look back at the games we`ve played in Spain over the last few years. My layout is pretty basic, but the games generally produce results pretty close to history, but still fun and challenging, at least I think so......... :D
"“Sir with the compliments of my officer, your shooting was excellent – you killed four of our men”!
Un-named Traillieur to an artillery officer at R`Fakah, Morocco, Feb. 29th, 1908

Seret
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Re: Does Paintaing have nothing to do with Wargameing?

Post by Seret » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:39 am

Richard B. wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:01 am
Morale - again simpler than often portrayed on tabletop - I ask the guys the question - "you`ve just seen your mates chopped by that machine gun - would you follow them"? the answer is of course - NO, so the follow-up troops take cover and call for support......
Morale is traditionally something that's been done poorly in wargames. Often the concept is "take a morale check to see if you obey orders". So you either fail and experience some detrimental psychological effect, or you pass and operate at 100% effectiveness. Which is, quite obviously, bollocks. That's not how humans under psychological stress behave.

Some modern games are being designed better, with progressive effects where you force in general degrades in effectiveness as it gets stressed, frightened and disorganised. I also like mechanisms that build a psychological effect into fire, that's crucial in an era where the aim of much of your fire is to cause suppression and casualties are a bit of an added bonus. To me a good rule set is where the psychology is baked into every part of the rules, and not something that feels bolted on.

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