How often do you re-read your rules.

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granty101
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Re: How often do you re-read your rules.

Post by granty101 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:44 am

UshCha wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:01 am
I an not paying for expensive models of the real world
CarlL might be the man to chat too. On another thread, he seemed to have found his way onto some 'naughty' sites... there might be some cheaper models on there Brain ;) ... :lol:

Grant
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UshCha
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Re: How often do you re-read your rules.

Post by UshCha » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:40 am

Toublle is they tendto be much larger scale some may even be 1:1. I quite like them but the wife is not so keen. :twisted: .

granty101
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Re: How often do you re-read your rules.

Post by granty101 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:48 am

UshCha wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:40 am
Trouble is they tend to be much larger scale some may even be 1:1. I quite like them but the wife is not so keen. :twisted: .
And how would you get them past her and into your modelling room or man cave :roll: ... :lol:

Grant
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cartfc
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Re: How often do you re-read your rules.

Post by cartfc » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:32 am

There seems to be a misconception that simulation = slow, complicated rules. As someone who has designed and run simulations as part of my job I would say that is not the case. Quite the opposite. If you designed a simulation of something that takes 10 minutes in real life and it runs over several hours then you haven’t given the participants an accurate feel for the time constraints they would be under. It is like those complicated air war games where it takes 20 minutes to play out a turn that represents a few seconds of combat. Completely missses the point. So what is it we are trying to simulate? There is that throwaway comment that if you really want to experience what war was like dig a hole in your back garden, half fill it with water, jump in and get your mates to take pot shots at you from the conservatory. I would suggest we are trying to simulate the experience of command. Players need to be faced with the sort of descions a real life commander would. Making a plan based on incomplete information, reacting to how the plan works out or not, where to commit reserves, which units need command input to get back on track etc. In order to achieve that you do not need to slavishly recreate every aspect of combat when it is the result that drives the descion making. The further up the command chain you are simulating the more abstract you can be. I think it was Frank Chadwick in Command Descion designers notes that remarked if you are a Panzer Division commander all you know about the state of the Panzer regiment is how many runners it has. What type of tanks, with what sort of gun is not relevant. All you know about the combat they are involved in is are they winning or losing and are losses light or heavy. The problem with wargamers is we simultaneously want to be Monty and a tank platoon commander. The level of abstraction individuals are comfortable with varies, but to suggest that rules with abstractions are not realistic is a fallacy. As long as the information provided to the player is accurate for that level of command then it doesn’t matter how that is derived. Equally to suggest that only very detailed rules provide a realistic simulation is also a fallacy. They may present the player with too much information, bogging down in detail and failing to allow the player to make the sort of descions commensurate with that level of command.
Last edited by cartfc on Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

UshCha
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Re: How often do you re-read your rules.

Post by UshCha » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:03 am

I have to agree with that. Also what supprised me is how much of Tradition is built into many wargames rules, "we always do it that way" seems to eb a common cry even when it is patently at odds with the real world. Sone bloke even wrote in a buuk that units had to have a standard infantry move 6" cavalry 12" even if this is patently Rubbish, Phil Barker showed tht to be rubbish with DBM a far better simulation than any before it. It was the ligght that shone for us in writing rules that stepped forward without exssesive and often un-even levels of detail. Many rules sets don't seem to break new grounds in the How, changing a die mechanism is generally not a major change in simulation. To me about a Company battlegroup commander is the limit. He is given if he is lucky lots of higher level assets, Infantry, armoted vehicels including IFV's and Tanks, artillery and even engineers, but is still quitre well in touch with boots on the ground and can still have some small connection with logistics without the major headaches that this intails higher up. hence while the rules are simple they give scope for intersting decision making of who and what goes where and when. What resereves are kept for when the plan deviates for what was hoped for/what the known unknowns areand of coures the unknown unknowns.

Richard B.
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Re: How often do you re-read your rules.

Post by Richard B. » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:05 am

Frank and Greg (Novak) also said the reason they had a turn in CD = 15mins? (sorry its been a while) was to simulate the fact that during a battle there are large empty/quite bits punctuated with minutes of action, bloodshed and terror......
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hammurabi70
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Re: How often do you re-read your rules.

Post by hammurabi70 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:16 am

Some excellent points being made; so which rules have got it right!!
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David Reasoner
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Re: How often do you re-read your rules.

Post by David Reasoner » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:27 am

Richard B. wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:05 am
Frank and Greg (Novak) also said the reason they had a turn in CD = 15mins? (sorry its been a while) was to simulate the fact that during a battle there are large empty/quite bits punctuated with minutes of action, bloodshed and terror......
Quite correct, Richard. The turn length for CD versions 1 thru 3 was 15 minutes. This was changed to 30 minutes in the fourth and current version, Command Decision - Test of Battle. One of the objects being to produce a rules set that plays in more or less "real time".

David

UshCha
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Re: How often do you re-read your rules.

Post by UshCha » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:45 am

Hammurabi70, Simples US, Maneouvre Group :twisted: . Real ranges, a concentration on basic real world tactics which means that Machine guns work much like they are supposed to, not hamstrung beyond rifle range. All the bits, Tanks, Infantry, artillery work together, Tanks move more plausibly but they also have plausible limitations. It doe only work for sane folk from platoon to compamy battle Group level for the attacker. It perfecly possible to play a battalion battlegroup boot on the ground but its a multi evening game for the obssessed.

In the nature of the beast it is possible to do more complex scenarios like raids on convoys, even we have found, some recce scenarios. Again as its simulation you are expected to field terrain which is vaugely realistic, so no points systems as they only work on the designers sterile terrin. Points sytems dont work if its tigers in a forrest, or boacarge.

Issue 2 is as much about trying to make the wording clearer with the already published changes. There are a few ideas about how to make it better but any new rule has to make a very significant impact to be worth adding and not screw up other stuff. More rules is not always a good thing, its slows the game down and that in of itself is not a good thing. Getting a representaion that fixes one problem and creates another seems a gereat way to think you have improved when you have not.


Oh and it does require thought, folk have noted that there are lots of optionsin our rules which though simple like chess make it hard to decide. As an exampel Tanks have 3 speeds AND reverse, and can turn the turrets. We have been told that this is wildly unrepresentative of tanks as they should be in a wargame. The mention of foremations as defined in Tank manuals is considerd a horror story told only to the chilldren of "warpainters". Having to think about such things is considerd anti social. :lol: .

We suggested he bought Rapid Fire, it looks lie a company game, the terrain is spaced oddley for a company game and the ranges and formations are all to pot but it does not require much thought and lets loads of toys that should not be on the table together on the table.

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hammurabi70
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Re: How often do you re-read your rules.

Post by hammurabi70 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 11:13 am

I am sure Maneouvre Group is very impressive but I fear it is a little too tactical for my requirements, which are company-sized units and platoon supports.

Rapid Fire I disliked at first encounter and have avoided it for the intervening 20+ years.
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